Just as a matter of discussion, yesterday I found myself wondering if there is some custom content that should not be considered as custom content or custom content a second time again ??
One can say that anything not originally or not entirely created by Bioware is automatically custom content... Why?... because a community member as done it or done something to it so therefore it is Custom Content, hum....
Without a party crasher thought, I can't seem to be able to agree on some level.
i.e. Object re-skinned with textures not created nor altered by the re-skin hak author.
Some people would say custom is anything over a certain percentage of difference, like say 40% or more changed is 'custom'.
From reading the vault comments though, there are a LOT of people that don't count re-skins unless the textures themselves have been created by someone other than Bioware.
As far as I am concerned, if someone takes the time to re-skin a tileset, then it is custom. I would prefer that the new skins offer something not seen before though.
I would also consider existing sets that were never completed, that have had their bugs fixed and some additional tiles added as 'custom' as well.
Believe me, tilesets are tough work to create. New buildings have all sorts of ways of being 'broken'. Anyone that can create a new tile, and have it work without walkmesh errors, one that the shadows work correctly, and also offers something not seen before, well, that person rates very high in my eyes. Even if it is something like the 'air ships' hak, that was pretty impressive work all by itself. Then for someone to take the time to make re-skins so that those 'same' air ships can be reused in different evnironments. well, that is also 'custom' work.
New creatures that have been created, even if they use some very base Bioware pieces, these are custom as well.
The new armour that I have seen, many just reskins of exisint armour have greatly improved the appearance of PC's and NPC's in many worlds. So, even though the base armour was already there, the reskin makes it a custom piece of work that adds flavor to different environments.
Believe me when I say, that ANYONE that take the time and puts forth the effort to 'change' what is already there, deserves credit for that effort. Especially when they do it for FREE!
I love the NWN community and the amazing work done by a large number of people. Some 'pieces' get more 'attention' than others do, but that doesn't mean that the other 'smaller' works are less worthy. The griefers that are out there, would complain if they got 99% of what they 'requested' (usually demand by the way), they would complain about that 1% until the cows come home. Would they stop the complaints long enough to 'create' something on their own? Usually not. So those people are not even worth worrying about.
To ANYONE that has contributed to the 'community content', I give a heartfelt thanks, even if whatever they have 'created' is not something that I may use. Someone, somewhere, will use that content.
Yeah I guess you could say that for the fact that someone somewhere in the world decided to take some of his/her free time to do some free work and add something to the community.
I guess maybe it's just my opinionated, logical, perfectionist and direct mind of mine that cause me too think a bit differently on the subject and is more focused on the creation itself than on the work done by the author(s).
Without a second thought I'm for encouraging anyone to create custom content, but much like you I'm not for repetitive creations when there isn't much or at all anything new to it.
You know... what really triggered my thoughts on the subject is, before the NWVault changed the website design, I remember at some point not long ago a .2DA file ended up in the Top Hak list at #1 position... ??? You have to have an idea of my reaction when I stumbled upon that revelation. Just to give you an idea, this is what went through my mind "... What the F*** is that doing there in the Top Hak List???..." Btw, I can't remember exactly which .2DA file it was or what it was for.
Another thing that made me wonder... Now please don't think I'm trying to talk down anyone in the following... It?s just a discussion.
Ok the next thing that was the trigger of my thoughts was CEP. Yesterday I was going through the Hall Of Fame list and found practically all CEP Related files in the list, now... I automatically thought "what the heck is CEP doing in the Hall of fame anyway?" (Note: not saying that CEP is crap)
The reason I had that thought is that even though CEP is not commercial nor supported by Bioware, to me CEP is an Expansion... yes a community expansion but still an expansion. And what is that expansion made out of? of already existing custom content made by various authors and those resources/assets were managed and packed in one hak. So ok, yes, it was again packed up by a team of community members and Kudos to them for taking the time to do so and a good job on their part, but the content was not altered nor modified just packed up, so the way I see that is I compare it to say a Music CD compiled with various songs from various artist... did a Various artist CD ever win Album of the year award?
Note that it doesn't change my life weather CEP gets an award or not, but I couldn't help finding this illogical.
Think about the Authors that have had their work added to CEP but there own hak didn't even get close to reach all of fame... I don't know about you but I'd be confused, I wouldn't know weather to be exited about CEP getting an award or insulted.
Anyhow, I have more thoughts on the subject but for tonight I'm too tired and going of to bed.
Again this is nothing more then a discussion to share oppinions, that's all.
CEP does belong in the top haks list, but not once for every release and again for each patch, OS Version or color change for that matter.
The CEP team did more than just 'bundle' things together though. There was bug fixing done and a major effort to get all the items to work correctly. There was major .2da work to organize all the different items, armour, creatures etc. Dupes were eliminated, the best of the best was included. Bug testing was done to ensure as few problems as possible. They combined and/or created documentation on how to use things, made all of it easier to use, and also encouraged more people to include the CEP in their custom worlds, thus making the whole CC experience a more pleasant environment.
I can't tell you how many times I attempted to use CC in some fashion and had problems getting that CC to behave well with other CC that I was interested in.
This is the sort of project that the CTP is doing as well. Grabbing the best of the best, fixing bugs, adding features, we plan on providing tips and documentation for each tileset, at least in some fashion. There will be CUSTOM, content, never before released in the CTP, but that doesn't mean that the other tilesets that have been gleaned from the vault deserve less credit. In fact, it should actually be taken as a plus for he authors/creators. There sets will be seen by more people, and will be included in more worlds than they would otherwise have been. Simply because the CTP team is merging things together, and fixing relationships so that tilesets will be compatablie without overwriting anything.
I know that the CEP documentation, clearly mentioned as many names or original authors as could be found. Giving full credit for their work. The CTP will do the same thing.
I think that 'permission' was granted by the creators of the CC included in CEP and I also believe that the same thing has been obtained by the CTP team as well.
Now, you have to realize, that my opinion regarding the CTP "IS" biased, since I am one of the beta-testers. Believe me when I tell you though, that there is a LOT of work going on behind the scenes to 'repair' CC that was never completed, or where work was stopped etc... other additional custom content is being added to each tileset that we intend to include, wherever that CC is appropriate.
As a member of that team, I can tell you that I was surprised by how much work actually goes into creating a SINGLE tile. Much less a complete 'set'. Think about things like the Caravans introduced in SOU. These are pretty cool 'additions' to a couple tile sets that Bioware controlled. Now think about creating your own 'custom' world, and choosing which 'additional' tilesets you would like to include. Get to building, working on a story line that includes a caravan. Somewhere along the line, you will run across some sort of exterior tile set that does not, by default, include the Caravan. Wouldn't you want the ability to change that? It's not as easy as it sounds. Place a caravan, from a bioware default, into an 'ice' exterior, and it will not look right because the 'tile' it was originally created for was made of grass... so, that is where the CC and reskinner comes in. He/she takes that caravan, and modifies the tile that it fits on, to match the environment. This takes a lot of work.
Maybe another example would be a van. Whatever it is, Ford, Chevy, whatever, they all come off the line from the same factory. (respectively speaking). You get 'x' number of choices for making it custom for you. Radio, DVD, CD, paint color, interior material etc... it's still a Ford. But now you take it to someone that performs magic on that flat panel van and paints the Mona Lisa on the outside, covers the seats with pink leopard spotted material, and hangs a large pair of purple dice from the mirror. That van is now considered 'Custom' when all that was done was a 'skin' job. It's still a Ford, true, but it is now also 'Custom'. Would I buy it? Not on your life, but I gaurantee someone would.
Now, if I take that original Ford econline van, and just spray a black line down the side with a cheap can of paint from Wal-mart, then 'no' it is not custom. So, changing just the color of something or the size of something, doesn't really make it truly custom. But if I take that basic, plane-jane robe from NWN and turn it into a Royal Robe, complete with Purple sash, Fur lining, and special buttons... well, that, to me, is custom. It may have been easy to do that change over, but enough was changed to make it appear as something new. Now, if I take that SAME robe, and make a change somewhere in a 2da file so that I can use that robe when creating my PC, then I would have really accomplished something new as well.
Anyway, don't take me wrong. People have a right to their oppinions on what they think should be considered custom. However, most of those opinions are based on what is available NOW, not what was necessarily available when the first CC'ers started out. There are works on the vault that blow my mind with their quality, there are also works that will never fit into any world I would wish to be invloved with. However, BOTH of those are custom content.
Another and final look at things, is whatever is happening with certain teams. Teams that are 'leaving' the freely given 'Custom Content' side of things and turning their skills into money making propositions. Those people obviously earned the right to do that. I will miss their 'freely' given works. I can't fault them for trying to make enough money to eat. Will their new 'releases', whatever they turn out to be, will those releases be considered 'custom' anymore? Probably not, even though the same person(s) created it, they won't count because they were 'paid' to do it... sad when you think about it....
My carpal tunnel is killing me, so I will just sort of leave it at that for now.
I prefer to keep it simple. Everything included with the game is not custom content, everything NOT included is custom content.
I.e. if you have to add it to your copy of NWN, its custom content. Getting anymore romantic or philosophical than that tends to be too subjective.
Quality, content, talent and effort are immaterial when it comes to deciding whether or not something is custom content. It should not be a "worthiness" test, it should be a "it passed through the hands of the community" test.
That's what I would put in the Dictionary. (Because "custom content" is not a compliment or a symbol of prestige, it is merely a definition).
Now the Top Ten list is a different matter. I think that "quality, content, talent and effort" all are factors. Recognition in the Hall of Fame is just an extension of this. However, with so many variables, this is in essence just as subjective.
An extremely talented artist who works for 10 hours on a project creating a masterpiece, or a somewhat talented artist spending 100 hours creating a fine piece of work?
Which one would you choose? Which one would be more worthy? Would you even know or care how long was spent making it/ the effort put into it?
All this aside, most people vote for what they "like" pure and simple. Or sometimes vote for a pal's work. The Hall of Fame and Top Ten list are popularity contests and nothing more when you strip away the fluff.
But I do believe that those projects that do have the greatest impact on the comunity do find their way into these lists. So, I think it is the concept that is flawed (i.e. votes can be made without full appreciation of the piece of content or for various motives) rather than the custom content that recieves praise being flawed.
If you want to talk about the CEP, although a compilation, it is undoubtedly extremely high on the list when it comes to "effort". This project passed through the hands of some very well known comunity members who "gave up on it" due to its overwhelming size and effort required. Is a project that takes a few thousand man-hours to do, worthy of recognition?
From a CTP perspective we have bucketloads (which are overflowing I might add) of bugs reported on tilesets from the Vault. I would hate to think that the 1000s of man hours devoted by its members to this project would be unappreciated by the community. Even worse, unrecognized/unacknowledged.
I can fully appreciate why some folks gave up on the CEP and passed it on to others. Although stuff makes the vault, it doesn't ensure it is bug free or ready for inclusion in a builder's mod. There are bound to be bugs still left undiscovered in the CTP. But we have caught a lot of them. The same goes for the CEP.
Personally, the CEP would get my vote 100% for the Top Ten list and the Hall of Fame due to the staggering size of the project they took on. A project of that scope does require recognition of the highest order for effort and dedication. If it was an easy project, you would not have seen so many folks give up on it.
The CEP might not be perfect, the CTP will not be perfect but I have yet to see a release on the NWVault of any substantial size (say a tileset or bigger) that was perfect.
Hum? I like both your opinions Bannor Bloodfist and Banshe
Come to think of it, now I realize what?s been bugging me about this subject? now I see that there should be two types of content definition.
1- Community Created Content
- New 3D models (Creatures, Placeables, PC/NPC parts, Tilesets, Tileset add-ons, etc?)
- New Textures
- New Scripts
- New Modules
- Naturally along with there necessary edited files 2DAs, ITPs, SETs
2- Community Custom Content
- Any of the above that is altered, modified or fixed
- Re-skins with other Bioware Textures or other Internet textures by other Authors
- .2DA, .ITP, .TLK, .SET
- Combos, etc?
Community created Tools seem to fit in their own category.
That is from a community member point of view. Of course from a Bioware point of view, any creation made by the community is considered to customize the game so weather they refer to it as community created content or community custom content, it means the same thing to them. But to my opinion, anything new from scratch weather it is new stand alone(i.e. completely new tileset) or added to existing content is community created content vs. community custom content.
Nothing romantic about that, just a logical and organized way to look at it.
And as for the Vault, well sure you can?t rely on what content as been acclaimed as truth for all acclaimed content.
And the subject of recognition, I guess I?m to judgmental and have to high expectations of my own self to be loose with others on the subject. For instance, I would not release content to the vault without first testing it completely and making sure there are no bugs.
Sure I might miss a few sparkles here and there but not much more than this. That is the way I am. If it is unfinished or buggy, I?m not releasing plain and simple. I ask my self ?what?s the point??
As far as the CTP is concerned, it would fit in both categories unlike CEP which would fit only in the community custom content in my opinion.
Bannor Bloodfist wrote:Maybe another example would be a van. Whatever it is, Ford, Chevy, whatever, they all come off the line from the same factory. (respectively speaking). You get 'x' number of choices for making it custom for you. Radio, DVD, CD, paint color, interior material etc... it's still a Ford. But now you take it to someone that performs magic on that flat panel van and paints the Mona Lisa on the outside, covers the seats with pink leopard spotted material, and hangs a large pair of purple dice from the mirror. That van is now considered 'Custom' when all that was done was a 'skin' job. It's still a Ford, true, but it is now also 'Custom'. Would I buy it? Not on your life, but I gaurantee someone would.
